The Healing Power of Community in Grief: Exploring Grief with Guests David Leonard and Chris Cano of New Hope Grief Support [Grief Series 6]
Welcome to another episode of I Thought I Was Over This!
In today's episode, Dr. Kimber is joined by two incredible guests, New Hope Grief Support's David Leonard (executive director) and Chris Cano (Director of Bereavement Services), who will share their insights and experiences in the realm of grief support.
David, a self-proclaimed "high-functioning griever," takes us on a journey through his own grief and the pivotal moment that led him to seek support. Chris shares with us his journey of being around death for most of his life and how experiencing the layers of grief surrounding divorce eventually led him to New Hope.
We'll learn about the transformative power of grief support groups and the profound impact it has on people's journey without loved ones. Together, Chris and David invite us to explore the intersection of death, dying, grief, and spirituality.
Get ready for a heartfelt and enlightening conversation as we delve into the complexities of grief and the power of community support.
Join us as we uncover the stories and lessons that will resonate with anyone who has experienced loss and remind us all that there can indeed be new life (though never without the hole of grief) after death.
Resources:
New Hope Grief Support Community: https://www.newhopegrief.org/
This episode is sponsored by Still: Making A Whole When Parts Go Missing, which is a resource for those suffering the loss of a baby during pregnancy.
If interested in receiving my newsletter, A Moment of Pause, you can sign up here.
Please remember that this podcast is not a replacement for treatment by a healthcare or mental health professional. This content is created for education and entertainment purposes only.
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This transcript was created by A.I. — please forgive translation mistakes.
Dr. Kimber [00:00:00]:
Welcome to I thought I was over this. I'm your host, Doctor a licensed clinical psychologist, trauma healer, and fellow life journey. Every episode, we dive into the science of humanine. And whether you find yourself feeling like you've just hit an iceberg and don't know where help is coming from or You're ready to trade in your raft for something bigger. You aren't alone. Grab what you need, get comfortable, and let's do this. So I am so grateful that you are here. We have two amazing guests who are really gonna dive into grief. They have dedicated their their current season to really cultivating community in grief. We have David Leonard and Chris Conno, And I am so excited that they're here. I'm gonna have David introduce himself and then punt it over to Chris.
David Leonard [00:01:03]:
Thank you so much, Kimber. Appreciate that we are honored to be in the space with you today. So thanks for allowing us to be here for those who are listeners. So grateful that you were taking time out of your life to be here and hopefully learn a thing or 2 or have an moment about what it looks like to grieve well and maybe to support people who are on that journey right now. So kind of, yeah, I'm in this season. I've kind of committed my whole life to this work. It's really important to me. I got into this work because of grief. You know, grief is one of those things that doesn't discriminate. And all of us at some point in our lives are gonna be touched by it. I think what's important is how we respond to it. And so for me, that journey Like, for everyone, it's very different. And for myself, I think one of my first big grief moments in my life actually was in my childhood, my parents, and when I was ten years old, I had a divorce. Yes. Not really hurt. I was a single child, only child. And so that had a lot of implications, but the impetus for the divorce really was because my mother struggled with addiction. She was addicted opioids. And so that put her down a path Unfortunately, of just kinda destruction. And as I got older and moved into adolescence and became a teenager and into my twenties, you know, it became parentified. I was the one kinda now taking care of her, which brought on a whole set of things for myself, but ultimately, Kimber, what what ended up happening is her choices ended her life. And so just really, you know, abusing her body and her mind and in relationships, including ours. So it it definitely was a really hard time in my life, and I tell people the time that grief never ends, So I I'm still I'm still a greever. I'm still part of the club that no one wants to be in.
Chris Cano [00:02:50]:
Yeah.
David Leonard [00:02:51]:
And so that pain Fortunately, it has become my passion, and I'm able to leverage my own learned and life experience, along with witnessing other people's painting grief. And taking the culmination of those 2 things and blending them such that I get to walk and journey with others at New Hope, grief support community, local nonprofit here in our city of Long Beach, to bring hope and healing through connection and support. To to adults, to children, to families. And so every day, we're getting to to talk and walk and journey with with people who had lost someone that they cared deeply about, or maybe had a really difficult and hard relationship with, but are still finding themselves grieving and trying to to work that out. I'm the executive director there. I do kind of a lot on the business end, getting out in the committee, talking about new hope, hopefully, o and ultimately getting people to feel comfortable enough and safe enough to say, you know, I I wanna be supported. I'm suffering in isolation, and then I wanna find that healing aid community. And it cannot be done alone. I have,
Dr. Kimber [00:03:56]:
a event event event.
David Leonard [00:03:58]:
I have a wonderful group of people standing with me beside me, behind me, all over, to make this thing happen. And I'm really grateful to have one of them here with me today. Chris Connor. He serves as our director of Freeman Services, and I'm a give him the mic and let him kinda introduce who he is and and what he's about.
Chris Cano [00:04:18]:
Yeah. Thanks, David and Kimber. Yeah, as Dave mentioned, but I am the director of bereavement Services here at New Hope Creek support. I just come up on the celebration of my 5th year,
Chris Cano [00:04:30]:
which is great. We've seen
Chris Cano [00:04:32]:
a lot of change and a lot of growth. But I've always been in and around death. My dad owned a mortuary growing up, and I worked in the fuel industry for 8 years. Later went back in top of the mortuary science department over at Cyprus College. The very school I graduated from, and, top classes on death and dying, Wallace Funeral Service Ceremony, and the diversity aspect of grief and ritual and tradition. Which was beautiful. Love the diversity of it all. Went into ministry. So that pulled me away. Went to fuller seminary. Got my MDiv. Was ordained as a pastor for a lot of years. And then I went through a divorce in the church. So David mentioned that too. My therapist said it's like a death without the cards in the Rills.
Chris Cano [00:05:18]:
Long hard road. Right? And and so that one almost killed me. I think the 1st year was really hard, to get through. And then 6 months after my divorce, my sister's husband died by suicide. And so I went out, of course, being the funeral director and the pastor, like, I showed up on the ground to support my sister Candy in her in her two curls and you know, she asked me, would you do the funeral? And I remember at the time, I'm like, I'm not even talking to god. I don't know what to say, but she came I came from a religious community. She came from a religious community. She was afraid somebody else might come in and say something hurtful, around a suicide. Yes. I would hurt on top of hurt. Yes. And so at that time, I I definitely wanted to protect my sister too and get her the support that she needed. So I did some research and and led that funeral service. And then just was like, man, I really want to get back and close to help supporting people who felt marginalized, people who are isolated, those were overlooked, and who were the under resourced areas of our community that really need investment. And so, you know, definitely suicide and my divorce were things that brought me back to grief work. Started volunteering with David. At that time, he was the only full time employee. We had a part time job, 20 hours a week working with him while I was going back to school for marriage and family therapy. And then we just really grew. And it hit this point in my education. I was like, okay. I need to either stop doing grief work with David or I need to stop school, Ryan. These are my 2 choices. So I I put my school on hold. I had gotten remarried in that time too. So that was another thing. I went from 2 kids to 5 kids. So life changed drastically. But, you know, love this work. Like David mentioned, we we know people do tend to suffer in isolation, but we get to watch them find healing and support and community. And know that there truly can be life after death. Right? That that there's life to be lived. And so we David and I, this really is our life work. We say that all the time. This is This is our passion. We we could consider a great honor to be here in this work, and we considered sacred space. So as somebody who's you know, I love the intersection. I'm also a certified danatologist. And so I love this intersection of the study of death, dying, and brave men, and spirituality, and how they they play together. And, so, yeah, this is we love this work, and we're super grateful to talk about it here with you, Kimber.
Dr. Kimber [00:07:50]:
Well, I am so grateful to have you both. It really is sacred space and You know, one of my deepest desires is for people to really be able to enter grief knowing they're not alone that It really is shame, isolation, maybe remnants of depression that kind of whisper to you that you have to do it alone. And going into community, it just breaks down. I think all of the external noise that can be controlled, so to speak. Right? Like, we can't change our situation, but we can definitely shift how we enter into our situation. And I think it's always better to be with people, safe people, Right? Not everyone knows what to say as your sister alluded to. Right? Suicide is such a complicated grief Yeah. And you both mentioned, I think divorce is one of the most relationally unnoticed griefs in our culture, maybe in the world. Like,
Dr. Kimber [00:08:57]:
we just we leave people out
Dr. Kimber [00:08:57]:
there by themselves in this devastation. So many layers. And, David, you mentioned the grief of parentified child of as an adult, even having to go back into developmental grief, which I think is a topic that isn't always talked about, but you had some of your childhood. Lots of your childhood robbed from you and how do you reclaim that as an adult. So I'm so excited to just hold the space with you both. Either one of you can answer this. Just what has been your surprise as you have continued your own grief journey, but also working with people? What do you what do you feel like is some of the surprising things about grief that you didn't know when grief came knocking at your door.
David Leonard [00:09:52]:
Yeah. I think well, for me, that it waits for you Oh. That it actually becomes this unwanted friend. Right? And so I was twenty seven when my mom died, right, and, like, as I shared, there's a lot of things leading up to her death that were Yeah. So I always had lived with anticipatory grief because my mom was constantly in and out of the hospital. Doctors were saying, oh, this is it. She's She's gonna die. Her body shutting down. And then all of a sudden, miraculously, she, like, sits up. So I hear a green ring. Oh, hey, mom. You're back. Okay. Let's live through this cycle once more and how many more times. So I had anticipatory grief. And so I think what surprised me was this idea, though, that that grief was going not going away, even though I had had anticipated grief.
Dr. Kimber [00:10:35]:
Yeah.
David Leonard [00:10:36]:
And so I kinda coined this term, Kim, for that I'd become a high functioning greever. So I was doing everything that the world told me I should be doing. I had a girlfriend, and I was working. I graduated college. I I put my mom's funeral together. I did a eulogy. I got the plow. Like, I did all these things that I felt that the world and friends thought I should be doing. Right? And then eventually, and then convince myself that those are the things that I should be doing. But I think what I learned along that journey, I actually ended up working with veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan for for a short while, and another job. And One of the things that I think surprised them was how much survivor's guilt they had over roadside bombs Yes. And thinking that it should have been then that died. And then spouses coming in with children saying we lost that in combat, but he had already been gone for 2 or 3 tours. So they already were missing him for 6 months or her for 6 months, and then they died. So what I saw in them, though, coming back with PTSD and coming to my offices for services, I could see myself in them. And I and I thought to myself, now I knew they had PTSD. And a lot of them were self medicating. They were against the system. Like, they didn't wanna go get support at the VA because they were angry in. But I remember in that moment thinking, if I don't do something, Right? If I don't do something about this thing, this grief that I'm holding in, then it's gonna eat me alive, and it will begin to manifest itself in ugly ways maybe and affect relationships affect my, well-being, my mental health, my spiritually, all kinds of ways. And so It was really then that I realized I'm not gonna outrun this thing. Right? He Yeah. This grief is with me forever. And so I then tried to seek out support. Thankfully, at the time, I got to meet with Sue Binney, the founder of New Hope, and she had just written a book for military families. So, like, we figured out how we're gonna we're gonna support the veterans. Not forget where at breakfast, and she looks across the table. And she's like, and so what are you gonna do with all your grief? And I was like, what grief? How do I make grief? No. Thankfully, she was starting a young adult support group, like, 3 weeks later.
Dr. Kimber [00:12:44]:
Oh my gosh.
David Leonard [00:12:45]:
And so I got into that group and, you know, that began my my journey of really healing, recognizing that I'm not broken. I'm not someone who needs to be fixed. I needed my pain to be witnessed, and I needed someone to look across the circle and nod and know that they got and ironically, sidebar, There was a woman in my group who was a few years older than me at the time. So I was, like, maybe 28, so she might have been, like, 35.
David Leonard [00:13:10]:
She was in the group. And she was from Alaska, and she had a son who left her to go live with grandma in Alaska because she was an addict, an opioid addict, and my mother was an opioid addict. So this juxtaposeness of, like, I'm here to greet my mom who died because of this thing, Now I'm witnessing a mom who's addicted to opioids to run from her grief that she's experiencing from the her loss And then she has a son who all he wants to do is be connected with her and have her mom clean and sober. So her and I had some really good talks too. And so I think that was a surprise too is the ways in which our loved ones do die and the circumstances surrounding it, a lot of times, become connection points,
David Leonard [00:13:56]:
But other people who are in grief, and those connection points can actually create or catalyze new relationships, support systems, conversations, that actually end up being either, a, helping yourself.
Dr. Kimber [00:14:09]:
Yep.
David Leonard [00:14:10]:
B helping them or in this instance, c, helping her to understand how her choices were impacting her relationship with her son. That and then she was coming to this idea that, man, this kid's grieving the death of his mom because of choices she made, and I'm making the same choices. Like, how can I be different? And so I think that That was a really long answer, but I think the shorter answer is it never goes away. Don't let that surprise you and count on Greek to surprise you. Yeah. Because you just never know what's gonna happen in your grief journey.
Dr. Kimber [00:14:46]:
You never know. It's so powerful grief is coming for you. Mhmm. Mhmm. It's coming for you. Yeah. How about you, Chris?
Chris Cano [00:14:55]:
A few things I think I've learned You know, one is Edithager. She's a a, author. She wrote the gift, and the choice. She's a Holocaust survivor. One of the few female voices who came out of the Holocaust to write and share her stories and her wisdom. And she describes a story, but she kinda sums it up with this phrase of If it's not expressed, it's repressed. And so the idea that emotions and things are held in our body, right, and they stay in there, and they can cause all kinds of damage. And I think the very fear of saying something out loud is the very thing that we need. We've gotta find expression to our grief. And so there's a saying to an element. If it's mentionable, it's manageable. If we can name it, even the hard stuff. And as a pastor, my favorite words were to hear, you know, hey, I've never told anyone this, but And it didn't even matter what was gonna come up next because I knew whatever was in there was gonna get a chance to breathe. It was gonna it was gonna lighten the load. It was gonna be less to carry. We could carry it together. And the idea that if somebody has a safe space for words like that to be spoken free of judgment, where they'll be loved and accepted and okay, then I think that's the beginning of setting people free. Right?
David Leonard [00:16:17]:
Yes.
Chris Cano [00:16:17]:
And so being in this work and seeing that happen over and over again, seeing people things, saying things that they, you know, should not say, the things that people say they should not say. I know I shouldn't feel this way. That's the other thing. Don't shoot on each other.
Dr. Kimber [00:16:31]:
Yes. We say that a
Chris Cano [00:16:32]:
lot of training. Don't shoot on yourself, and don't do that to other people because we're trying to live up to something something in our culture and our world has shaped us to believe it's supposed to look like this rather than what it actually is. Yes. We do that. We do that to our own detriment to all the brothers. Yes. Just creating a safe space and realizing the power of saying the hard things of mentioning the unmentionables, and realizing how how much that can set you free and set you on a path of healing. Right? And I and the last thing I'll just say on that is the really thing that's profound is This idea that grief doesn't get smaller over time, that you will get over it, but that this idea that it's almost a post traumatic growth that's happens, the grief stays the same eyes. If it's, you know, 10 inch hole in the sole, then it stays the 10 inch for the whole life as if you could love any less, right?
Dr. Kimber [00:17:27]:
Right?
Chris Cano [00:17:28]:
Beauty of of what can come out of this is the the life that's built around that looks. We did a training this past Wednesday in our one of our our volunteers She's a widow. And she we were talking about this, and she said the difference it made to know that this wasn't going to get smaller. That this is what I'm living with.
Dr. Kimber [00:17:48]:
Yep.
Chris Cano [00:17:49]:
Set her free so that she could begin to whatever that new normal will be, start to live into that. But too much of the pressure before that was put upon, well, I'm this is still really big for me, and that must be wrong. Right?
Dr. Kimber [00:18:04]:
Right.
Chris Cano [00:18:05]:
And yet this is still such a big hole in my in my life.
Dr. Kimber [00:18:10]:
Yeah. And it's so powerful to stop thinking you need to be moving through something and instead know you're you're living with something now that that We're not crazy or behind if we don't feel a certain way.
David Leonard [00:18:29]:
Yeah. And I think
Dr. Kimber [00:18:31]:
that's so important to keep you know, being a a megaphone about.
David Leonard [00:18:37]:
1 of the the 3 things we share. So you're pointing about crazy. We sell newly brewed people. 1, you're not going crazy. Number 2, everything you feel is normal and okay and grief. And I think it's the most important one. Number 3, despite what the world friends or family may say, you have permission to greet. Like, you have permission to read. Give yourself permission to greet. It's okay.
Dr. Kimber [00:19:00]:
So powerful. So powerful. I really have a burden for our next our younger generation, and I just imagine, like, It even brings tears to my eyes because, you know, when the loss of my son as a stillbirth, 17 years ago, my daughter was three and a half was in school. And the way that that preschool came around her was so beautiful, and she didn't feel alone. And in fact, one of the other moms in that one of her classmates' moms was pregnant and due a week after me. So here she was Going to preschool every day. 1, her classmate had a sibling. She didn't. And the
David Leonard [00:19:44]:
way that she was
Dr. Kimber [00:19:47]:
come around. It's so powerful. And I think if we start integrating grief in the classroom,
Chris Cano [00:19:55]:
Mhmm.
Dr. Kimber [00:19:56]:
Not that we need to put one more thing on our teachers, but how can we as communities, these come around the grief that you've even divorce. You know, deaths, like, even being free to keep talking about the one who died. Let's change that. Right? We need to be talking about those who are loved and not being afraid to bring their name up. And in fact, being proactive as a supporter of those grieving to really continue to bring up the loved ones.
David Leonard [00:20:33]:
This last year, we've been doing a lot of events, and we make pendants, like little pins. Yeah. Sitting on the event, like, we did a drum circle. We did little drums, and we did a nature day. We had a tree at the bottom of every one of those bins, it says, say their name. And so the idea is that it's a conversation starter that someone say, oh, what what is that? And it gives them an opportunity We hear from a lot of grieving people, but especially parents, Kimber, and thank you for for sharing with us that loss you experienced that their kids will be forgotten Yes. That no one will write that that my loved one will be forgotten. And so the power of name is crucial. You know, and I we encourage people. Like, if you're listening, we know it's hard, like, you know, at work, the guy in the cubicle next to you or at you know, if your teacher, wherever you find yourself working. We tend to avoid, but we need to lean in. And when I always encourage people, don't just say, you know, how are you doing? Say, how's your grief today, or how's your grief been since your husband, Brad, died? So uncertainty Yes. Right? And most people love to hear that because they're like, wow. Number 1, you you generally care. You're not dancing around, like, what's really happening. No. You're grieving. So it's affirm it and name it. And then 3rd, we're gonna say their name.
Dr. Kimber [00:21:47]:
Yes.
David Leonard [00:21:48]:
But the person receiving that as full authority to say not right now.
Dr. Kimber [00:21:53]:
Exactly.
David Leonard [00:21:54]:
I appreciate that, but isn't a good time. But but the fact that they know you're leaning in like that And so it's it's really important that that those that are supporting grieving people. I mean, because the because I think the thought is we're gonna make them sad Well, guess what they already said? You know, they're already grieving. Like, we're not gonna do more harm. It's usually the platitudes that You a lot of harm.
Dr. Kimber [00:22:18]:
Amen. It's so true. Right? And even teaching our kids, you don't have to be, like, say the sibling's name. Mhmm. Right? Like like, hey. Like you said, David, they'll tell you not today, or but they're already sad. So let's start creating a culture where we really do remember those who have passed from this this earth. You know, again, if it's welcome. Right?
Chris Cano [00:22:44]:
Yeah. I wanna speak just to because my my sense is there's likely a number of listeners who've had a traumatic hard death too. And I wanna share a story, of one of our volunteers who had a toddler drown while she was home. It's obviously very traumatic. And, and she has repurposed her pain. She's done a lot of writing and she has become a real gift to the Barreach community, but she hit this point where she was talking so much about, you know, every particularly drop end groups and you show up and you you share your story. Right?
Dr. Kimber [00:23:17]:
Yeah.
Chris Cano [00:23:18]:
The story was just, you know, riddled with details of the death. And she started to realize, you know, she she'd been doing this for so long, not just receiving support for herself, but but offering support to others. She's realizing She was starting to forget aspects of her life because they were being overwhelmed by the details of her death. And so she decided I'm just gonna start, like, journaling blogging, and she started blogging and created a website of memories of things that it's even small things about her daughter that she just loved, and people started jumping on by the website actually got a lot of traffic. People posting their story. With the value of being able to, let's keep telling the stories of life. And I think it's harder to do that when you're dealing with traumatic death because There's a number of reasons people wanna focus on the details of death, and we could talk about that. But being able to hold on to share stories. I think whatever is particularly with our kids, what we normalize in the home is what they know to be normal. So adding our person into regular conversations and and and asking the questions. What do you think would you know, your dad would think about this moment? Or you know, and just I remember when, you know, Susie, you know, she used to do this. And and we say this in our grief groups. They're in, like, good funerals. They're They're just filled with lots of tears and lots of laughter. And I think that that's a great way to hold and integrate our people, right, redefine the relationship with them moving forward. And so I just, again, focus especially if you find yourself because trauma so much caught up into the event. Right? Mhmm. You find yourself there, continue to to work and and spend time remembering those positive things. To.
Dr. Kimber [00:25:02]:
And that is such an important word. A somatic experiencing practitioner who really does helps people move feelings and trauma out of their body, we have to be aware when we tell somebody about the death of our loved ones, depending on the details, our nervous system doesn't know that that was in the past. And we keep and so you know what? Often it's not asking about the details. It is about asking more general questions or like you said, really being like, what what would your loved one think about this, but really keeping memories alive around the goodness and really limiting the retelling because that is trauma every time to your nervous system. Our nervous system does not have the same timeline as our mind.
Chris Cano [00:25:54]:
Yeah. Great. Yeah.
Dr. Kimber [00:25:56]:
Well, what has coming alongside others really required from yourself? Like, How do you keep building your container of grief? And, yeah, how is that shaped
Chris Cano [00:26:11]:
I think in my time, you know, back here in brief work, I've become a better listener. The idea of holding space and being a container for whatever needs to come out, realizing the power that you have to help Open up space for people to feel safe enough to to surface what's in there. So good listening, I think, is something that I feel like I grown in. Now I wanna put a disclaimer. I'm really good with other people. My kids, probably not so much. It's really hard at home. And that's the second point there too of, like, I think, you know, so I'm more instrumental in my grief. I want to to do things and I'm more active, with my grief rather than being in the emotions. And I think one of those things paired with my personalities, I wanna fix things. And so resisting the temp patient to rescue from emotions, finding ways to validate people what they're going through, Even when it comes to misplaced guilt or anger, allowing them invalidating how and why they would feel that way, before trying to, like, talk them out of it. I think are things that have caused me to grow. And I I say that as a joke. I think I've done better in my home, but I can tell you this, it's the
David Leonard [00:27:31]:
hardest place to practice these principals because I
Chris Cano [00:27:34]:
wanna fix my kids, and I think I know better. But, you know, it's a good reminder. I think this work has made me a better friend a better husband, a better father for those things, and realizing, you know, people desperately want to be seen and heard, and they really can't move forward until they are, particularly in and around grief, which I think is why it makes it so isolated. We want to rescue people who are in that space, often out of our own anxiety. Right? Yep. So those are things I and I saw those in myself early on. I've learned so much from this community. Our volunteers are beautiful. I say this all the time. I They've got this deeper and wider capacity for compassion and empathy because it's been carved out by their own pain. And I don't know what else creates a human being like that. Other than, you know, hard pain that I do realize so often, you know, things can make you bitter or better. But when I look at our our volunteers and the people who are out there, you know, so supporting other people. There's just these beautiful people who represented Biden Hope that there is life after a death. I feel like today I can't get out of bed, but look at their they're doing it. And that is such a powerful thing that we think about pure support. So I think those are things I, you know, I see in myself as what I'm I really, what I benefited from being a part of this work.
Dr. Kimber [00:29:03]:
That's powerful. I think holding your container can become as big as it needs to be because you're listening and not fixing. When we fix, we keep putting things in the container and it fills up. Yeah. So it's such a powerful word of how you can hold others grief in all the shapes that it it shows up. So how about for you, David?
David Leonard [00:29:28]:
Yeah. I think, allowing it, yeah, I think it needs to be fluid. Right? And I have to set boundaries. So there is so much grief in the world. And I tell, you know, a lot of a lot of nonprofits, they do good work, and they're setting out you know, maybe if you're a hunger or food organizations and we're gonna eradicate hunger, or we're gonna maybe eradicate homelessness Well, with grief work, we're not eradicating grief. Right? One out of one people will die if you didn't know that, and one out of one people will greet. And so for me, I echo everything Chris said and agree with it 100%. So I don't I don't wanna rehash that. So I'd agree with what he said. And I think for me, I find myself because my role's different. Right? He's the director of agreement services, and he manages and supervises staff and interns on the program side. As the executive director, you know, in the early days when I had no staff, I was doing everything. And so I was on the support line and and walking with people and journey. And so I had to be really mindful about how much I could be filled out because I still, like, Chris's point, I still had to be a husband. I still had to be a dad. And what I realized about grief, is that it takes lots of people to help a grieving person or family, that it can't just be on the shoulders of me. Right? So I think there's this in my younger, earlier years in my career, this I was kinda naive. I was like, well, of course, we can fix, like, of course, we can fix of course, she just needs groceries because they didn't have life insurance policy so we can provide food and shelter like Maslow. And then provide a grief support group and love her kids well, then she'll be okay. And then what I learned was that grief is just this beautiful mess. But within the mass, it requires a lot of people to be all of the containers because they each of us are gonna hold a piece of that person in a different way. Because we each have a different relationship to the deceased, but we also have a different relationship to the supporters in our tribe.
Dr. Kimber [00:31:29]:
Yes.
David Leonard [00:31:30]:
Right? And so for me, I think I've kinda stepped more. My container now is more of like an advocacy. Like, I really wanna be out in the community talking with stakeholders. Chris and I both are members of the national alliance for grieving children. Like, we'd love to be out learning and listening both as practitioners, but listening to our clients and the community. Yep. Taking into consideration culture and religion and all the ways that this shapes and informs grief and then being able to go to the places, right, decision makers and people who have the means to help us build the greatest grief resources for our community And so I think for me now, I'm in a phase of my my role, my career, where my container's being filled a little differently. I carry now with me the grief stories. Right? Like, they come with me. Those people's stories are ingrained. When I first came to New Hope as a volunteer, I went to my grief group. I was like,
Chris Cano [00:32:26]:
I don't wanna be here.
David Leonard [00:32:27]:
Then if you know, Subini, she's like, oh, can you volunteer camp? I was like, lady, I didn't even wanna come to the camp. Like, to the group. So I go to camp, and I need a five year old boy. He says, you know, David, you lost your mom. I lost my mom, but together, we're gonna be okay. Right? And so that kid will forever be with me, and I have lots of those stories. And so I think, you know, I wanna help tell those stories. Right? Yeah. So I've I've held a lot of stories over the years, and it started needing to learn boundary setting and understanding that I'm not the guy who's gonna fix them because they don't need to be fixed. They need to be witness. Now, you know, caveat if they or living with trauma or complicated grief or what, like, then we need to get them some, you know, refer to you, Kemper, right, and and other people who can help them work through that. But I just find that the power of story, people have not had an opportunity to share their story. Authentically and be vulnerable. That's why our support line, Chris has a lot of time training our staff. I'm like, look, we gotta try and keep these calls about 20 minutes. They'll have a whole grief group for 8 weeks to share it. Yeah. But a lot of times, it's the first time they feel like they have a safe person, so they're just like, blah. They wanna tell you all of it. Yes. And we're like, but this is not a therapy call. This is his support. Like, we wanna get you to the resource.
Dr. Kimber [00:33:42]:
Right.
David Leonard [00:33:42]:
But our interns and our staff have so much empathy Right? You know, and Chris, I'm gonna speak to him. Like, he did that support line for 3 years through the through the pandemic. He hit a wall, and he's an impact. So if you're an empath, you just carry people's stuff. And we and he has to be mindful now with the interns and our staff. Like, if you're an empath, You know, you need to and so what I'm gonna do today is also not this idea of container being built, but also this idea of self care.
Dr. Kimber [00:34:09]:
Yes.
David Leonard [00:34:10]:
Right? And so then if you are internalizing all that and carrying that, then what what is your plan? What are you doing on a regular daily basis to make sure that you're caring for your own well-being. Yeah. Right? As you are going out to to serve others and to listen and to carry and hold space, You have to have to. We go to a conference every year. This last year is in Pittsburgh, the national alliance for Children's Greet. The number one thing was turnover and burnout for grief workers in the trenches, those who are either leading grief groups on a regular, those who are therapists, or those who, are actually, like, on the support line.
Dr. Kimber [00:34:45]:
Yeah.
David Leonard [00:34:46]:
Just getting caught after call after call hearing about people's children dying or my spouse dying or whomever it may be.
Dr. Kimber [00:34:52]:
Yep.
David Leonard [00:34:52]:
And they're just like, I'm done. Because the case the the number of calls coming in, the volume, they've now run out of space inside themselves to hold that. And so They don't get the support they need from their agency. They don't get the support for themselves that they should be doing on their own because they may not have the bandwidth. At the time.
Chris Cano [00:35:11]:
Yeah. So
David Leonard [00:35:11]:
Chris and I, I'll I'll leave it on this. We've challenged ourselves to say, what would it look like to build a grief agency, a grief center, that puts the people first. Like, if we know that there's high turnover, then that shouldn't be the status quo.
Dr. Kimber [00:35:26]:
Right.
David Leonard [00:35:26]:
Like, we need to create and build a different way, caring for grieving people, and it starts with caring for your own people first.
Dr. Kimber [00:35:34]:
Yeah.
David Leonard [00:35:34]:
So that they can lead out in ways that are healthy and model what good grief looks like. Right? And so that's one of the things we challenge ourselves is we're we're about to enter a strategic planning phase. We're gonna plan the next 3 years of new hope, and that is gonna be a big piece of what we do kind of grief awareness, grief education, but then this idea of carrying for oneself as a practitioner in grief so that hopefully people can stay in these roles longer. You know, there's a shortage of teachers. There's a shortage of nurses. There's a shortage of mental health professionals. This is not a space we can have afford to have a shortage in. You know, I'm gonna say this. I always say this. Part of my advocacy is that bereavement is a public health issue. It is a public health issue. If it continues to be ignored, you think it's bad now? 1 in 14 kids in the United States will lose a biological parent or sibling before the age of 18, and that number doubles to 1 in 7 between the ages of 18 25. So roughly right now, there's roughly, like, 3,500,000 bereaved children in America.
Dr. Kimber [00:36:35]:
Yes.
David Leonard [00:36:35]:
And that only counts for biological. So when you start talking about multigenerational families, living in Duplexes under one roof, and god forbid, 1 of the adults die under that roof, you're gonna have the same the same consequences and impact. So we have a lot of work to do, and that's why we wanna help others to be better containers.
Dr. Kimber [00:36:55]:
Yeah.
David Leonard [00:36:55]:
Those types of self care.
Dr. Kimber [00:36:56]:
And I love the idea, right, that we're not talking about an open container. We're talking about a container that also has a lid. And I love the analogy that our airlines give us. We gotta put our mask on first. Before we put anyone else's mask. So really identifying what you yourself need and notice that your body is going to carry your
David Leonard [00:37:20]:
story and
Dr. Kimber [00:37:20]:
other stories and how What are the signs that come up in your body that you're actually getting depleted and you need to go fill up before you,
David Leonard [00:37:35]:
Fall down.
Dr. Kimber [00:37:36]:
Yeah. Before you fall down
David Leonard [00:37:37]:
and burn out. You do.
Dr. Kimber [00:37:40]:
You if you have a high given out, you gotta get some in.
Chris Cano [00:37:44]:
Yeah. And I think it's important to note this is what we're camping on too is that, you know, self care has to be prevention, not post prevention. Exactly. We don't jump into self care once we're burnt out. We've gotta do that on the front end and build it in as part of our rhythms. And so that's Yeah. We started an internship program 2 years ago. At the end of this year, we will have 30 interns. But our goal always has been, we wanna inject more grief and form people into the community. So what better way to do that than to bring in undergrad or grad social work students train them and brief, give them opportunities. What we start with, listen, you you won't be able to do this for the long haul. We are seeing too many mental health workers burn out. And fall out. And so the the goal has to be this has to be prevention. And so, you know, if we're just gonna train them on grief, it'll be short lived, but we really need to help people learn to take care of themselves before they take care of each other.
Dr. Kimber [00:38:40]:
Yeah. I love that. And that really gets to the next question of How do people best support people grieving? What are some of the tips that you have and then maybe talk about what people who aren't doing it well. What are they doing? So kind of doing it well and not doing it well looks like.
David Leonard [00:39:03]:
Yeah. Oh, I wanna start by saying, you know, we just did talk about, oh, social workers and this and that, I I just for the listeners, I wanna say this, like, you know, you don't need to be a grief expert. Right? If you ever lost somebody, you're a grief expert.
Dr. Kimber [00:39:19]:
Yes.
David Leonard [00:39:20]:
And so in the sense that the greatest loss you're facing is the one in front of you. Right, whatever happens to be in that moment, the loss that you're carrying. So if you find yourself supporting grieving people, I think sometimes we just overthink it. Right? We joke about, oh, the cards and the casseroles. Like, we're really good at that. And those can be important in that season right, for those 1st couple weeks as people are trying to navigate. But the other flip side is that we tend to see people's grief hit harder once the cards in the casserole stop coming. Because our lives are moving on, and then they're left to be in their grief. And so I think just really practical, like, leaning in, checking in on people, text messaging them, setting their death person's death anniversary in your phone, setting their wedding anniversary, setting their kid's birthday. Whoever died, like, whatever dates are important to that, put put them in your phone. And and maybe a few days early, not even the day up, but saying, hey. I know in 5 days, like, this day's coming. What are what do you need to feel supported? What we find, Kim, is that a lot of grieving people don't even know what they need. So a computer log is like, what? Oh, I'm here. What do you need? Wait. They're so overwhelmed and then time goes on, and they find themselves not even knowing what they need in grief. So if you're a giver, I wanna encourage you Take a moment and write a list out of things you think you need in grief from others. So the next time someone says, how can I help you? How can I support you? You know how to list. And it can be as simple as yeah. The next time you're in the store, just pick up some eggs, milk, and butter and, like, just bring it over. Or, hey, you know, my nails and my, you know, we're looking a little funky. Like, I need a mani pedi. Could you just, like, pick me up and take me to the nail salon? Or my kids are driving me knocking fucks. Like, get them out of here. Like, I'm now widowed. I'm losing my ish. I don't know what to do, but could you just come watch my kids for an hour while going to the other room and nap?
Dr. Kimber [00:41:10]:
Yes.
David Leonard [00:41:11]:
But you don't realize that that's building up. And if you take a moment as a grieve or that out, you like, I was like, oh, there are actually some really practical ways my friends and family could be supporting me in this. Because otherwise, what happens is but they're not communicating what they need, then the others on the outside are either left to guess what you need, or they're so hypersensitive. They don't want to lean in and do anything. So then what happens is you you're sitting there judging them, like, well, they didn't show up. They didn't they didn't wanna help me, or they were only there at the funeral. And now they've disappeared. You know, and so I think part of that is as hard as it is, is, you know, as much pain as you're in. You could just identify a couple things and then put that out of folks. And then, I'm a let Chris. I don't wanna take all the all the points, but if you are supporting a grieving person and you text them, because that's a pretty big way of communicating these days. Like, don't be offended if they don't respond.
Chris Cano [00:42:06]:
Yep.
David Leonard [00:42:06]:
Like and you might even end the text message with, like, it's okay not to respond. Right. It's it's not that they're ignoring you. It's not that they don't care about you or that you're reaching out. Just give them permission to grieve in their own way. Right?
Dr. Kimber [00:42:18]:
Yes.
David Leonard [00:42:19]:
And look, when when they're ready or when they need something, like, they're gonna ping you back.
Dr. Kimber [00:42:24]:
Exactly. I think that's so powerful.
David Leonard [00:42:26]:
I caught one that's, like, practical. I caught a couple yesterday out. I was out to lunch with a dear friend and caught this couple, and I knew her mom just died. So they they were literally there. As a couple greeting. They were I could tell they've been crying. I I gave them a hug. What's up, guys? How you doing? And then it was simple. I just like, where's their waiter? Like, just buying them lunch. Right? Like, you know, like, just surprise sometimes surprise people with how you could show up
Dr. Kimber [00:42:53]:
I love that.
Chris Cano [00:42:54]:
I I'll I'll just touch on the second part of your question because I love all those things David David had suggested. But I remember when I was in the mortuary business and I would do, you know, services. I remember at one point, I thought I should write a book of all the things that you should not say. To someone who's just experienced a death. And in our support groups, we create space to air those things out. And there is a lot of hurt. And we say this a lot in our training, well intended people who say the most horrific things, you know, and so that the intention really is it's good. They want to help. They hate to see you hurting. They don't know what to say, and this goes back to, you know, this grief illiterate society that we live in. But finding ways to recognize, that people are doing the best that they can, but, yeah, and it really hurts to hear some of the things that have been said. Particularly, you know, in the church sometimes, like, god needed them more, or they're in a better place. And often what we do with our facilities, it usually has to do with our own anxiety need to say those things so we feel better rather than making them feel better. Because if you tell a mom they're in a better place when their child has died, I hope you don't get it in the face because it's big, right? Like, the best place for my child to be is with me.
Dr. Kimber [00:44:12]:
Yeah.
Chris Cano [00:44:13]:
And so I think that's a big one. And on that end, you gotta allow space, again, oh, this is my pastor hat. You gotta allow space for people to tilt their fingers up to god and be really angry at him. And that is not a threat, to their spiritual journey. It's actually a depth to it. God's got big shoulders. I remember walking through my divorce and in my pastor's, my two friends that I started to church with, they said, you know, I'm not anxious about your journey and god's not either. And so there's this sense of, you know, going into this kind of deeper space where things are not as easy, or as predictable as you thought when you signed up for this. In half of the old testament, you know, the songs are are or people angry at god and wondering why is this happening? This is not supposed to be the way it's it's supposed to look. So I think that, you know, allowing space for that, is really important. But just being mindful of the things that we're saying that I think a lot of it has to do with just knowing yourself what's going on inside of me.
Dr. Kimber [00:45:17]:
Yes. What
Chris Cano [00:45:17]:
can I do to help them? Right? The last thing I'll say on that is I like David Kessler's work. He has, the 6th stage of grief, which is meaning making, and he tells a story of this book, which I thought was helpful because people can be very embittered by this process, and he says there are people we've we've all experienced this. Who when a death happens, they lean in and they show up and you would have never expected it. And there's other people who fade back and you don't see them, and it's not what you expected at all. You thought they'd be there. And I thought he had a really good take because we all have our own debt anxieties and how this has been modeled for us. And even if we're doing the best we can, We all have a disposition about how we handle death. And he said, you know, some people are gonna show up right there in the 1st days, and then they'll be gone. Other people are more wired to show up 2 months down the road. And I definitely have had people like that, you know, who showed up in different ways. And he said, it's like a beautiful symphony of friends. Right? You've got your high notes. They're kinda lighter. Right? They might show up and You help bring some joy and laughter to your life. And then you've got these deep bass notes to that that kinda sit in there, allow you to resonate. They can resonate in a tune. You know, to your pain as well. And so, you know, just recognizing every I think a lot of people are doing the best they can. We really don't know how to show up for ourselves and each other. But there can be some beauty in that too. That's sometimes people show up at the right time.
Dr. Kimber [00:46:43]:
Yeah. I love that. And And just a reminder to our audience that when we are in pain, when we are in stress, trauma, our brains are wired to look at what going wrong. So we do start who's not showing up keeping the list, but what can happen is we don't see how other people are showing up. And so I always encourage just myself and my grievers and my practice, hey. What is going right who's showing up now? Your your feelings are valid. Your disappointment's valid. They are doing the best they can. We can hold both, but who is showing up in this moment and who's saved? You know? Because it is Our brains are wired to really look at what's not right. That's the threat.
Chris Cano [00:47:31]:
Yep.
Dr. Kimber [00:47:32]:
Well, I have a specific question. I know, you know, I do a lot of one on 1. And I personally have been in grief groups. I did a new hope. Grief group around infant loss, baby loss, and it was so powerful, but there's so many misconceptions. About doing a grief group. I don't wanna do I, you know, people I don't wanna hold other people's grief. I don't You know, I wanna do it individually or however. So what are some of the things that you might say really help you when someone's on the fence about joining a group versus trying to get individual Hope. I mean, I'm not making one better than the other, but I think grief groups are so undervalued. And I guess I wanna how can yes. What do you find?
Chris Cano [00:48:26]:
This is what we love to talk about. You know, like we said, we we suffer in isolation. We begin to heal and community. And I think there's a lot of things that go in to keep people to be, you know, from a
David Leonard [00:48:38]:
a grief group that could be that
Chris Cano [00:48:39]:
I feel like I gotta be strong. I don't want to own that this is disabling to me that I need help. Right? These are some of the things that I think just humanly we we experience, but you know, the value of showing up and and belonging. Now we do closed groups. So we do intake interviews. And then the closed group, it's the same group of people they meet together for 8 weeks. Mhmm. And the goal is that you build and then you you find a tribe in your journey together. And the beautiful thing about this is that you know, we watch groups stay together for weeks months years after the group ends. They're still in contact. We'll go to lunch. David and I will run into two people having lunch that they met in their grief group 2 years ago, and they're still getting together and they're they belong to each other. Right? And I just think right now, you know, with with our current climate around social withdrawal and social anxiety coming out of the pandemic, this has always been a problem. Vivek Murphy, who's our surgeon general wrote a book called Together. He says The biggest public health crisis that we're dealing with in America is loneliness. More than half of Americans are lonely, and most of them are young people. So for the first time, we were just disconnected. So then that's where that's where we're starting, and then you had grief, and it's like, we are all of them. And so the the power of knowing you're not alone, David alluded to it early, we call this the the power of the nod. Or you can come into a space and look across the circle and you can share your story in someone or everyone in the circle is going to nod. And that they know what that journey is like. And there's an authenticity and integrity to it. And I'm with you. We never compete. Do you do therapy or do you do grief support? It's it's a back and forth. We love our therapist. We we refer back and forth all the time. Sometimes therapy is what people need, but therapists will say, you know, you really need people that are gonna sit with you and that are gonna be able to nod from a place of I'm on that journey too.
Dr. Kimber [00:50:41]:
Yes.
Chris Cano [00:50:41]:
And I think that is really important. And then the last thing I'll say before David takes takes on that one is, you know, when you feel like a death has has occurred and you feel like you're not there is no life after death to see embodied hope, to see people who are still living, that they're picking up the pieces, and they're doing it well. Right? They've integrated their locks. They're not running from it. It's creating space each week for an hour a half to self care. And to self like, to commute. Right? And so you're coming together an hour a half, you're acknowledging your grief, you're identifying process and emotion. And there's a lot of power in being able to support others as they support you. That mutually beneficial relationship of sometimes when you can't even do anything for yourself, sometimes healing comes through doing it for others, and that's a really powerful image that we see happen a lot in grave group. So so, yeah, peer support is, I I think they go hand in hand. I think that they that can coexist and people can benefit from both.
Dr. Kimber [00:51:44]:
Thank you.
David Leonard [00:51:45]:
Yeah. He he nailed it on the head. That's I mean, those are probably all the same reasons I would say You know, I tell people sometimes, you know, it's beautiful that some week, you're the one crying ugly with booggers and snot and whatever or showing up angry or guilt. And and you're the one who gets to just be in the space and take over the space for your time in the group. And then there's other weeks you're gonna show up where You don't have much grief to express, but you find you're the one handing the tissue box across. And a lot of times what I find is people on grieffills of, like, I have no purpose. My life is over. Like, me, whatever. Maybe I was married to this person for 40 years. She was my everything, and now I'm just in this house by myself. And I feel stuck in here when they come to group. And all of a sudden, they're like, man, I actually have meaning. Like, I'm supporting this woman. I'm supporting that widow. Like, So this beautiful family emerges, and I'm a fan of story. So I think the way I'll I'll I'll share the power of it, there's recently there's a that we had a a member named Jay who came to one of our groups. He lost his wife of many years, and he went to his church. He went to his primary position. He went to He's referred to psychologists, and he's like, no. This is work. And so he had heard about us through a friend. He's like, if you're treading your home, he's like, no. At this point, he was pretty burnt out. He's like, there's no hope. So he calls he called in September. He got into an October group. And started out with 2 of our we have a lot of superstars, but these particular Stephanie and Lee, they're this great dynamic duo facilitators. And he got in the group. So he he finishes the group. We use the group app in our groups if you're familiar with group meet. It's a great way for me to be communicating not just in between the sessions to support each other. Right? That's what we wanna foster connection. Right? We don't have enough staff and interns to be, like, the light. We need them fostering and building connection among themselves, which is why it's called peer support. So this is almost a year after his group. He's been shown up to events. He's been coming to things. He puts on the group. Hey, guys. I'm embarrassed to ask this, but My wife and I, we used to buy our daughter in the eighties nineties, Barbie. She loved Barbie, and he says, I know if my wife was alive. That she'd wanna go see the barbecue. But I don't wanna go by myself. Oh. He's like, would anyone go with me? Oh, within sex, bing, bing, bing, bing, when are we going? What time? Where? So they go they they get their tickets. They show up to the theater. James Wiring a bright pink Hawaiian shirt, right, like, for the Barbie movie. And J73. So he's got his bright pink Barbie shirt on. His group shows up. They go into the theater. They got their popcorn. They got their and keep in mind that his group, it's all it it's eclectic. Right? It's Yeah. It's like the athletes, the the jocks, and the punk rockers all got together to, like, go watch the Barbie movie. So they come out They take a picture in the Barbie box together, right, like the and then they go to Cheesecake Factory because you can't talk about grief and not have good food and fellowship. So Here's this man who would have never got involved with this, right, who was totally apprehensive about joining the group. He reluctantly kinda gets into the having been fell by other things. And now he has a group and a tribe of best friends who will literally, within seconds, say yes to go watch in the Barbie and I'll do a shameless plug. It's Long Beach Gibbs right now for any local people. Next Thursday is a 24 hour giving campaign. We have highlighted, Jay, His story is being told today in the Grundy gazette in the press telegram, and they're highlighting who he is in his story. So it's just beautiful. And I think, like, I led with grief doesn't discriminate. Right? Yeah. And it brings it it is the great unifier. It brings everybody together regardless of what you're come from is. So I think to if you're on the fence and you're listening, you know, let Jay be an encouragement to you. You know, he he he's this guy who was married for a bazillion years to his wife and he loved in a door who thought he could never experience joy, or have new friends and all these things. He didn't think he'd get out of life. He'd get outside of his wife and their relationship that they held. And here he is at seventy four years old has brand new friends, friends in their thirties, in their late twenties, who will go see the Barbie movie with him. And it doesn't mean that he's done grieving. He's absolutely grieving. Right? 100%. But he's also creating and finding ways to create new memories, new traditions, and new friendships that he shared with me that he said, he knows for sure that his wife, is smiling, right, that he has found new life, that he is he's building and fostering connection. And I think That's what grief group does. It puts you. You've ever been on an airplane and shared your whole story with a guy or a woman next to you because you know you never see them again? That's grief group. But you're absolutely gonna be journeying with these people for the next few years.
Dr. Kimber [00:56:48]:
I love it. So powerful. So great. Well, this has been just such a delightful conversation with the 2 of you. How do people get a in touch with you. How can they support new hope?
David Leonard [00:57:05]:
How might they join? So if you are seeking services, Like, you're like, I'm ready. Like, I wanna say and we do have Zoom groups. I mean, we're on the West Coast, so we we're on West Coast time, but if you're in Nevada or or Arizona or local, go to our website, new hope grief.org. I know Kimbra you'll be including all those details. You can fill out an online interest form, or you can call our support line. Someone from our team will get back with you. We'd love to hear your story connected. You see if you are, if this would be a good fit for you or how we can connect you to the right resources. That's what I wanna note is, like, We wanna make sure that it is a good fit for you and where you find yourself in your journey.
Dr. Kimber [00:57:44]:
Yeah.
David Leonard [00:57:44]:
Sometimes it's not. And so we'll refer you to someone like you, Kimber, or a local resource. We're connected to over how many, Chris, probably 75, 100 grief centers across the country. Oh, yeah. But we can we can get you to the resource. No matter where you live. And then, I mean, secondly, follow us on social media. New Hope creep support on the Graham, or on Facebook. That's where we're constantly updating stories and giving really good resources for people in grief or how to support someone in grief.
Dr. Kimber [00:58:14]:
And I also got to see you dancing. I think you are He's on a later one.
David Leonard [00:58:20]:
Yeah. That was for a long beach kids. Right? Our marketing The things they forced
Chris Cano [00:58:25]:
us to do. I tell you,
David Leonard [00:58:27]:
The things they make us do for grief.
Chris Cano [00:58:29]:
Yeah. But
David Leonard [00:58:30]:
we'll do it. I mean, we're committed. So I think Yeah. Just just reach out. Right? There's lots of other great grief allies we have. For example, on name drop, a little modern loss is a great place to go. What's your grief, Leads and Eleanor, 2 really amazing gals in the grief space, do a great podcast. They do tons and tons of articles they write. So if you if you find yourself 40 and under, there's the dinner party. They do great work. They connect you around a table across the country. And you connect with other souls who are living in grief, 40, and under so they connect and break bread together. So There's plenty of resources out there. My encouragement to you is if you're listening and find yourself preview, like I did, and I knew something deep down inside of me. Right? My grief is waiting for me. I knew it was not gonna lead me alone. Listen to your soul. Listen to your body. Reach out as hard as it may be. Whether you're 74 like Jay or 20 7 like I was or somewhere in the middle, like, like, reach out. We are not created to do life alone. Especially when hard things arise. We are communal people. We're a communal race. Like, we need to be in community. And so don't be afraid to raise your hand and say, You know, I'm hurting. I've been paying. And can someone please help? And I think that's the first step. So you don't reach out to New Hope. Reach out to somebody. Yep. The resources are there.
Dr. Kimber [00:59:57]:
I love it. Anything to add, Chris?
Chris Cano [00:59:59]:
No. I think that that's all that is great. I mean, just to, yeah, agree a 100%. I don't think I have anything to add there.
Dr. Kimber [01:00:05]:
Okay. Well, again, so fantastic to be with you both. Thank you for your work. With new hope. Thank you for your alliances around the country of helping us be a more grief inform society and creating sacred spaces.
Chris Cano [01:00:25]:
Yeah. Mhmm. Thank you. Thank you. This podcast continuing to help normalize this experience of loss and all your great work. Keep it up. Thank you for and thank you for having us.
David Leonard [01:00:37]:
You're so welcome. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you to our listeners. You guys are awesome.
Chris Cano [01:00:41]:
Yeah. Thank you.
Dr. Kimber [01:00:45]:
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